陈丹青：我妈在美国被人推了两次，都是中国人推的！

evians

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2011年8月24日。陈丹青接受了南都记者专访。

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知识分子

南都：你一直通过言论、文章在发出自己的声音，你觉得自己肩负怎样的责任？

陈丹青：我从来没有想过我能灌输思想，我从网友回馈上知道，他们对我的言论不感兴趣，但是他们从我的言论里看到原来可以这样来看城市建设，这样来看大学教育，这样来看社会上发生的一些事情。只要有一点点破口就好了。

南都：近年来，在很多公共事件上听到你的声音，是什么让你发声机会变多了？

陈丹青：其实我很少曝光，一年下来只有两三次这样的活动，像这次获奖，来参加南方阅读盛典颁奖典礼，我一定会来。这是我本人的书，而且是讲鲁迅的书被选上，我视为一种荣耀，是读者对我的一个肯定。

南都：现在一旦发生大事，就会有“公知”出来说话，你如何看知识分子的曝光度？

陈丹青：我不觉得中国有多少知识分子，因为公共空间都很有限，一个可以称得上是社会的空间，严格说还没有。现在媒体会让大家误会，以为有舆论空间，有公共知识分子。公共知识分子是独立的，他不拿谁的钱，他只拿公司的钱或者雇佣他写稿的钱。可是我所知道的中国的公共知识分子基本上（供职于）大学和媒体、电视台，他实际上是拿官饷的，所以他独立不起来。

南都：在你眼中，公共知识分子应该是怎样的形象？

陈丹青：我很珍惜、很尊重目前被认为是公共知识分子的那些人，比如秦晖。当然这包括一部分网民。（现在）还没有一个自由的空间，（让）这些人能够相对独立地发言。能够有声音发出来，这是多么珍贵！况且我不太在乎他有多少知识，我还是在乎言论空间。

大学教育

南都：这些年来，你一直为艺术教育发出声音，你如何看待全国的艺术教育？

陈丹青：像美院是艺术学院，它是自由散漫的，这个稍微好一点，但是它有一个进口和一个出口卡死大家，那就是考试。我说的不是英语考试，主要是政治考试。

南都：怎样的教育算是好的？

陈丹青：第一不要太相信学校。学校只是让你度过青春期的时间。第二个真正教你的未必是学校，更不是教学大纲，而是周围的好学生，但更重要的一是来自校外的资讯，在网络上，在图书馆，在书店，在美术馆，在画廊，信息远远多于教学大纲能够给你的，所以聪明的孩子自然就会受到影响。

我认为大学四年变得越来越不重要了，只是你对爹妈有一个交代，我上过大学了。问题是现在还要交好多钱。但是你根本不要指望你在教室里变成一个艺术家，你必须走出校门。

南都：有人说我们现在处于信仰缺失的时代，你怎么看待？

陈丹青：我们现在的情况是比信仰缺失更糟糕，西方也有信仰缺失，为什么呢？虽然西方有一部分传统价值观从来没有缺失过，就是基督教、天主教，包括伊斯兰教，像日本的佛教都在。但由于文明的进程，让大部分人从宗教禁锢里面走出来，尤其是科学家和科学主义，经过一两百年的启蒙运动，后果是西方同样也信仰真空。民主自由存在负面效果，比如离婚率、犯罪，还有未婚怀孕种种的问题。西方的问题跟中国完全是两样的，（他们是）在获得自由以后，发现生活的重心和价值观不再像传统社会那么凝固。

给年轻人的话

南都：你曾说过80后、90后成长后，整个社会还是会有希望的？

陈丹青：有希望。我对年轻人只有两个要求，一个要求是饭碗第一，一定要自立，不要不现实。年轻人大学毕业以后，你其实面临很现实的一个处境，你的饭碗最重要了，不要把饭碗砸了；第二个要求就是在这个前提下，尽量不要受这个社会坏的影响。因为人在年轻的时候，多少总是正直的，总是有冲动、有理想、向善的。三十岁以后，要么是平庸，要么就转向恶，就开始变成一个社会的帮凶，进入这个机器。

南都：80后、90后属于最交接的状态？

陈丹青：最交接，因为等他们成长的时候，已经进入这么一个双重机制。我的前半生是100%的集权，后半生我忽然跑到美国去了，100%的自由，所以资本主义的好处和坏处，我都尝试过了。坏处就是竞争，有生存压力。好处就是讲理，有保障。

我母亲现全靠美国的福利制度生活。她每个月最低有700多美金的收入，所有的医疗都免费，比中国的一个白领收入还要高。你能想象吗？她没有为美国增加过一分钱的财富，可是她享受美国福利制度。她在美国住了20年了，我试图让她回国，我在上海给她买了房子，她待了三个月就坚持要回美国。因为她到处被人推，在马路上、到医院里、进电梯、上车、走路都被人推，她说她在美国生活20年，只被人推了两次，回头一看都是中国人推的。

呵呵

我母亲现全靠美国的福利制度生活。她每个月最低有700多美金的收入，所有的医疗都免费，比中国的一个白领收入还要高。                这句话是不是值得怀疑？

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